When the Bars Slammed Shut

Former navy seal and bank robber,  Bob Schibline, recalls the moment his Alcatraz prison cell slammed shut. It was a sound that he says marked the beginning of a 5-year moment… full of the kinds of Alcatraz secrets that only a former inmate could tell you about…  and Bob is eager to share all the tiny moments that make up his 5 years on the rock. 

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Transcript

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Katie Mahalic (Voice Over) If you're listening with children present,  please use your discretion as this episode contains adult topics and language. Also,  to be noted, this episode has been recorded on location. Often you will hear a thud or a  pounding. This is Bob Schibline, hitting his kitchen counter emphatically as he is quite  animated when telling his story. We hope you enjoy this episode of Shadow Clock. Bob Schibline Sugar or cream with your coffee? Katie (On Location) No, we take it straight. Bob Just like I do. Katie (On Location) Thank you so much. I thought we could order in lunch or something. Bob I got a pot of chilli I made yesterday,  and I can get it warmed up in 5 minutes. You eat chilli or drink beer? Katie (On Location) Cold beer, did you say? Bob Oh yeah. Want one now? Katie (On Location) Do you want a beer right now? Alejandro Vélez I could have. Katie (On Location) I could do a beer right now. Alejandro Thank you. Katie (Voice Over) The kind and hospitable  voice you are hearing belongs to Bob Schibline, an 87 year old ex-Navy service member, martial arts  savant and retired scuba instructor. The other voice you hear is my husband, Alejandro Vélez, who  graciously is running audio during this visit to Lake Wales, Florida, the town in which Bob lives. Bob I  forget my walker. Every once in a while, I walk off with without it. Katie (Voice Over) If you didn't catch that,  Bob’s saying, he often walks off without his walker and he's not kidding. To be honest,  he uses his walker more as an arm rest while sitting than for anything else. KatieKatie (On Location) Can I help you with  anything? No? You are like, you move fast Bob. Bob You what? Katie (On Location) You're just an active guy. You move fast. Bob I cheat, I got a walker. Katie (On Location) You said you had a  hip replacement. Didn't you tell me that? Bob Yeah.  January I had my hip replaced. I didn't fall. Katie (Voice Over) If this was Bob at 87, I could only imagine  what he was like in his twenties while serving in the underwater demolition team, also referred to  as the UDT, an elite division of the Navy that was created after World War II and the forerunner to  today's US Navy SEAL program. UDT service members were trailblazers in underwater demolition, combat  swimming, and commando training. Bob was trained to kill, as you'll hear him explain to me a bit  later. It's important to keep in mind that during the 1950’s, the decade in which Bob was enlisted,  scuba was still being developed and explored. He was truly an underwater pioneer, and the fifties  were exactly the years of Bob's life I had come to talk with him about. Except I hadn't come all  the way to Florida to discuss his legacy in scuba and martial arts. I was here to talk  about something else, another skill set per se, that Bob had secretly acquired while in the Navy. Bob When I went - joined the Navy, our mostly pay back  for us, in the forties was $30 a month. Now that’s not much nowadays, but $30 a month… plus I had all  my food, my my clothing… and… (unintelligible), bedding and place to live - everything except my  cigarettes and stuff like that. It was a nice life, but $30 wasn't much in spending money. Katie (Voice Over) And so Bob decided to fix the  problem and came up with a plan to help not just himself, but three other guys on the ship as well. Bob Now, my idea was this: there’s four of  us were in a team, and we were friends. We pooled our money and we’d grab our guns, steal a car,  knock off a bank, go downtown, start drinking with the rest of the sailors, and then our money,  guns and everythings in this bag and we carry it back to the ship as personal shopping stuff. Katie (Voice Over) And that's exactly what Bob and his friends did,  until of course, he wound up in Alcatraz. I'm Katie , and you're listening to Shadow Clock. Katie (Voice Over) As when trying to understand anyone,  it's important to start at the beginning and Bob is no exception. Bob’s mother was  a widow and had had two kids before she met Bob's father, Jack Schibline Bob Brother and sister, half brothers,  half sister. They had a father and he died and she re-married Schibline - who was my dad. Katie (On Location) Okay. Bob But Schibline, like me,  was smart. And he had a job at a newspaper. This was depression time, back in 31. Paid a dollar a  day or something like that. Good wages back then. But at nighttime, he was a bootlegger. Katie (Voice Over) Bob and his siblings  grew up one block on the Mississippi River in Muscatine, Iowa. It was during  the night that Bob and his brother would accompany their father on fishing trips. Bob And we  would go there to river, night fishing, and I didn't know what was going on. Katie (Voice Over) Bob and his brother provided the perfect cover. Bob And booze would come  down on the the barge and he was picking up this booze and delivering it. We made  more money delivering the booze as bootlegger than we ever did as a printer, as a pressman. Katie (Voice Over) Notice Bob says, “We” here,  “we made more money as a bootlegger than a pressman for the paper.” I found that  comment striking, as Bob was only about five years old at the time. Bob My dad was  a bad guy. I mean he was a… when I got a a costume for Halloween or something,  it had to be black hat cowboy - not a white hat - and two guns - pearl handles. Katie (Voice Over) Bob's dad didn't live  long enough to find out his son actually took after him far more  than he may have wanted him to. Bob was about six when he died. Bob My dad died of uh, some kind of um…  kidney disease, and my mother died of um… colon cancer, right after that. She died within a year. Katie (Voice Over) And so Bob and his  two siblings were left without any parents or anywhere to go. It's important to understand  here that Bob was the only biological son of his father. Gene and Dean were  Bob's father's stepchildren. And this made all the difference when placing Bob in a new home. Bob Now,  here we come to a difference in family. Schibline was a croo—a hoodlum. He was a bootlegger. So when  my mother died, after my dad died, the family came in and took my brother and  his sister away. And um… nobody wanted me. So one of the Schibline’s relation,  the bootlegger, picked me up and took me to a place called Birdville. Katie (Voice Over) I found it eerily coincidental  that the first place Bob was ever sent to against his will was Birdville. The filmmaker writer in  me couldn't help but notice it, considering the last place he was sent unwillingly was Alcatraz,  which means pelican in Spanish. And once I did notice it, I couldn't get the image  of a bird frantically fluttering around in a cage out of my head. It really bothered me. Bob The Schibline’s,  they were old people that lived in a one room shack out in the middle of nowhere,  and he had blankets hanging up from the ceiling, dividing the one room shack into four rooms,  two bedrooms, a living room and a kitchen. And uh, that’s where I lived for the first year. But these  people, they were retired living on, I don’t know what, and uh I was a young kid. But these people  eventually found out they could not handle me, take care of me. So they, they uh, got rid of me. Katie (Voice Over) A friend of Bob's father,  who also worked at the newspaper in Iowa, found out that Bob was  up for adoption. You'll notice that when Bob talks about him, he sometimes calls him Dad. Bob His name was Dobbins.  George Dobbins from Wisconsin. So he grabbed me and adopted me. And gave me his family. But  his wife didn't care too much for me. She never liked me. I felt that. And when she had more kids,  I felt it even more because then I became a babysitter and a Cinderella type of thing,  only male version. I took dad’s lunch to him, at the reporter, where he worked at, and uh,  I had to take care of the kids. I babysatted, I did everything, but I was not a member of the  family. Anyway I lived there for a few years and I had to get out of there. So I joined the Navy  when I couldn't handle it no more. Joined it at seventeen, and started robbin’ banks. There was four of us in a team and we were friends. So we pooled our money and we bought  guns, hip holsters, oh we were badass. I had more guns on that ship than the Navy  did. We-went into town with our uniforms. We’d take our uniforms off, put civilian clothes on,  grab our guns, steal a car, knock off a bank, go back, put our uniforms back on again,  go downtown, start drinking with the rest of the sailors, and then our money,  guns and everything is in this bag. And we’d carry it back to the ship as personal shopping stuff. Katie (Voice Over) Once the guys were on board,  they would stick everything in their lockers and go to bed,  lights out. It was the perfect setup with the perfect cover. No one would suspect a group of  sailors. The next day the ship would leave, avoiding any roadblocks the police set up,  and before they knew it, they were safe and sound in the next state and docking in different ports. Bob And that's when I left the  normal world and joined my world. We would robbed… just little bench banks. No big bank, not a lot of  money. And there was only two or three tellers. We’d take our money and who-who’s gonna get hurt? Katie What do you say to them? Bob I’d say “open the safe” Katie (On Location) Did you ever have to yell? Bob Yell? Raise  my voice? I can't remember raising my voice. I’d talk - I’d talk like I'm talking to you. I said,  “this is a robbery. We're gonna take all your money. Don't worry about it. We’re  not gonna hurt you - not unless you cause us. You're not going to get hurt because  it's insured. We'll take it and go. Nobody will know anything about it.” Katie (On Location) With two guns or one? Bob One. Katie (On Location) Cause I read that you used two pistoles sometimes. Bob Well, that’s the author that said that.(Katie and Alejandro laughing) Bob I’d never…  you had to have one hand free to take the money. So, these guys take liberty with their stories. Katie (On Location) Were you scared…the first time… Bob No. Bob I had the gun. Why should I be scared? They're  the ones who were in trouble. I just walk in the door. If there was a safe, only one person can  open that safe, and each one is a combination. And with me there, he’s gonna tell me the combination  if I want. One little girl in the third bank, she says, “You know, you can't get away with  this.” I said, “Honey, it’s a funny thing you tell me that - the last two banks we robbed,  they told me the same thing and here I am robbing your bank.” All they could see is that pistol. Katie (On Location) Did you ever wonder what they were feeling? Bob No,  I didn't even care. As long as they gave me the money we got along well. Katie (Voice Over) The authorities never  did build up an M.O. on Bob and his team. Bob made sure that he kept all the variables of  all their robberies different, down to never hitting the same state twice. And  considering the ship was always on the move, docking in different parts, this was easy. Bob I- I had to figure it out to a T. We'd never get caught. We never did. Katie (Voice Over) And what Bob means is,  he never got caught for the banks he robbed, while in the service. Bob During  the Navy there was four banks I robbed. Then I got out and I robbed six more. The sixth one,  I got caught. That's the only bank they knew I ever robbed. Alejandro (On Location) But how did you get caught? Bob My partner snitched on me(Katie and Alejandro gasp) Katie and Alejandro Vélez (together) No! Bob He was a new one. Katie (Voice Over) When Bob left the service,  the original four made a pact that they would never contact each other again. It was a way  to keep each other immune, if one should go down for something else eventually. But Bob wasn't yet  finished with his bank robbing scheme, and so, he got another partner. Unfortunately for Bob,  this guy didn't have the same code of honor as Bob's sailor buddies did. Bob When we went in this bank,  we put everybody in the vault. We didn't lock them in it, we just put them in the vault,  I cleaned out the tellers. We were about ready to go out the front door, and all of a sudden  we heard shots. The man… the manager or somebody got a gun inside the vault. He had it stashed.  I don’t know what caliber it was but he got it out and was shooting at us. But the bullets were  hitting the teller's cages, and wasn’t going through the glass. It was ricocheting. Anyway,  we walked out and uh got in the car and then a rifle started shooting at us. And  they were tearin’ the car apart and I go “Shoot those son's of a bitches!” Katie (Voice Over) To give you some context,  we're in the year 1956, in the state of Wisconsin during deer hunting season. Bob There was this sports bar right across the street  and all the shooting had got them excited and they grabbed a deer hunting rifle, ya’know, Wisconsin's  big deer hunters. They got guns every place - they come out start shooting at us. And I said - “Shoot  the son of a bitch.” Well, he said- he he just- he was hunkered down- he wouldn't fire a gun. So I  was trying to drive and shoot at the same time and uh, he'd seen somebody fall over in the mirror. Katie (Voice Over) It truly sounded like a  scene right out of the Wild West. In regards to the man Bob and his partner saw go down,  Bob said, the guy must have just slipped, because no one was hurt  during that getaway. But that incident was enough to make Bob's partner panic,  thinking they had killed somebody- specifically that Bob had killed somebody. Bob We took the car,  took a plane, train over, and we were away. But two days later,  we separated for long enough for him to get to a telephone. And he called the FBI(Katie sighs) Bob (cont.) and gave himself up and said,  “Now, if anybody got hurt, Bob, done all shooting, not me.” So, when I got busted,  he testified, he tried to testify against me. My attorney found out he was testifying and said,  “you're dead Bob.” So we pled guilty and I threw myself at mercy of the court.  They gave me 15 years, and they put me in Terre Haute, Indiana. Katie (Voice Over) Bob was at Terre Haute for 30  days before his partners showed up with a reduced sentence of a year, which he got for testifying. Bob As soon as he got there,  they shipped me to Leavenworth and cuz, they knew that he wouldn't last a day. Katie (On Location) You woulda killed him. Bob Well, yeah. Katie (On Location) Like literally, without a doubt. Bob I-I would have  killed him. That's the way I am. That’s um, I'm… careful. I'm… ready. Prepared to go all the way. Katie (Voice Over) Bob was moved to Leavenworth, which up until 2005  was a maximum security United States penitentiary in Kansas. While there, two significant things  happened in regard to the rest of Bob's story. One, Bob earned the nickname “The Enforcer”  for reasons I'll get into in a minute. Two, he met a guy who quickly became his best friend. Bob His name was  Gino. Gino Scuselli. He was an armored car robber out of Chicago, he was- one of my best friends,  and he was about 5’10, 5’7- 8, bodybuilder. He had muscle where you ain’t supposed to  have muscles. He had muscles on top of muscles. He had no neck, but he was tough. Katie (Voice Over) And this toughness made him a perfect  sidekick for Bob, or rather The Enforcer. It was while putting this part of the story together that  I realized I wasn't exactly sure why Bob earned this nickname. And so I called him and asked. Bob(Over the Phone) Uh, The Enforcer came  from where I was teaching some friends of mine, Gino. Katie (Over the Phone) Yes. You're best friend. Bob(Over the Phone) And um… I taught him  how to… how to kill with his hands. Katie (Over the Phone) Like by… what - how  how - like by… getting his hands around their neck? Bob (Over the Phone) No, no, no martial arts. See,  I learned a lot of stuff in the - in the UDT, in the Navy. Katie (Over the Phone) Okay. Bob (Over the Phone) They teach you how to kill quietly and fast. Katie (Over the Phone) Man. Bob (Over the Phone) We all had special training.  And I was very adept at that. So I got to be very, very, very good at it. But when I got in,  uh, when I entered Leavenworth… did I tell you- I - I - they tried to mug me there once? Katie (Over the Phone) No, I never heard that story. Bob (Over the Phone) Well, see, I went to  the commissary to pick up cigarettes and you ya know, popcorn, candy bars,  stuff like that. And there was three guys that are-are in his mugging team and they  were waiting at the backdoor for me to come back to the cellblock with a bag full of groceries. Katie (Over the Phone) Okay. Bob (Over the Phone) And uh, when I stepped  in the door, they threatened me. And through my martial arts training,  this is all reflex now. I - I never even put my grocery bag down. I just chopped  out with my fingers in my right hand at the closest one’s throat. Katie (Over the Phone) Oh my god. Bob (Over the Phone) And hard. And then with a back swing, I came back  and hit the guy right next to me with my elbow in the face. And then there’s one straight across  - to the third one -and knocked him down, all this before I even set my bag of groceries down. Katie (Over the Phone)(laughing) Oh my god. Bob(Over the Phone) Now, this was all reaction. There was,  uh, oh - a dozen convicts in cells that were watching this, and they started cheering me. Katie (Over the Phone) Huh. Bob (Over the Phone) Because these guys were known as muggers. Katie (Over the Phone) Mhm. Bob (Over the Phone) And they were cheering  that they were down. So when the guards came and arrested us, they took us all to the hole. Katie (Over the Phone) All of you? Bob (Over the Phone) Oh yeah, all four of us. When  you're in a place… all four have to go to the hole. But they never mugged again after that. Katie (Over the Phone) Anyone or just you? Bob (Over the Phone) Well, as far as I know,  anyone. They lost their reputation when they got beat by one man. Katie (Over the Phone) Like big time. Bob(Over the Phone) And um, that's how I got the name, The Enforcer. Katie (Voice Over) His new name may have granted  him protection from the other inmates, but it also made him a target for the warden. It was about two  years into his stay that the convicts held a food strike in efforts to get better meals. Bob was  asked by one of the ringleaders of the strike to enforce it by making sure all the inmates  knew that someone had put glass in the hash. And that's exactly what Bob did. He let everyone know  that unless they wanted glass down their throat, they better not eat. Bob never even knew if there  really was glass in the hash. In this case, he was just the messenger. He's adamant about this. Katie (On Location) So you started the… Bob No, I didn’t start it! Katie and Alejandro Vélez (On Location) But you enforced it. Bob Yeah. Katie (Voice Over) Ok. Bob And they said  I - I - I- was an instigator, I started it. And I wasn’t! Katie (Voice Over) The indignity that I  could hear in Bob's voice after all this time. It took me off guard. It seemed like so long  ago. And then it clicked for me. Only the worst of the worst were sent to Alcatraz. Bob never  had any intention of ending up there. Alcatraz was for prisoners that couldn't be controlled  anywhere else. And Bob, he was about to be sent there for reasons that he swore he had  nothing to do with. It was only when Bob got on the transport that he realized he wasn't alone. Bob So when  they chained us all up, belly chains, they had us alphabetically lined up, there was Gino Scuselli,  my close buddy. And my name is Schibline, so our names are pretty close together,  so he was right next to me all the way to Alcatraz, we were handcuffed together and  he was crying all the way, just not crying, pissin’ and moanin’, “It was all your fault  I'm going there. You taught me how to do this shit and now here I am going to Alcatraz.” Katie (Voice Over) Apparently because of  Gino's new skill, he had also been called upon to “enforce” the strike. Considering neither  of the two knew the other was involved until sitting next to each other on the transport,  I'd say it's safe to say neither were ringleaders, but it didn't matter. It was too late. It's important to understand that no one is sentenced to Alcatraz.  Convicts who are sent there are already doing time for their crimes elsewhere,  and Alcatraz serves as a last resort -the ultimate punishment for those who the system can't break.  The infamous prison sits out in San Francisco Bay, 1.25 miles from shore. It's perpetually  swallowed by fog and equally engulfed by legends of man-eating sharks circling its  base. It's no wonder that just looking at it across the choppy waters gives you the creeps. Bob I got off the bus  with the belly chains and handcuffs and belly guards and all that kind of stuff and standing  on the dock waiting to get on a boat, looking out on that island with the prison on top of  it and shrouded by fog, and I'm standing here with the name Enforcer and wondering if maybe  there isn't 200 and some inmates in Alcatraz who think they are The Enforcer, and who I’m going  to have to prove this to when I get in there or what- I- what am I getting myself into? Katie (Voice Over) And here we come to Bob's  moment when. It wasn't a moment of salvation that marked his life, but rather just the opposite. Katie (On Location) Do you feel like  there was a moment in your life where everything just changed? Bob That - what do you mean, changed? Katie (On Location) So, like… Bob That I don't shoot nobody anymore? Katie (Voice Over) If you didn't catch that, Bob said  “that I don't shoot nobody anymore.” And yeah, I guess you could say that's kind of what I meant. Katie (On Location) That, yeah, that…you…you… you…  I'm just curious if there was a specific click, like a specific moment that… Bob I think it was a five year click of my time  in Alcatraz. I don't lock the door. You know why? That cell, when it closes, it makes a noise unlike  any prison, any jail, any place I've ever been, it's a noise in my head. I hear that cell block  clinging shut. And boy, when it does, it bothered me. It it it bothered - it hit my head and has  been there ever since. I will never lock indoors, I say - I hear that click, if I ever lock the  door, I would hear that same sound of being locked up in Alcatraz, that’s bad. And to this day, I've  never locked myself in to my own house since I got out in 1965. And my house has never been locked  if I'm in it. So I - I’m against locking myself in. I won't do it. I won't do it, voluntarily. Katie (Voice Over) And so Bob began serving  his time in one of the world's most notorious maximum security prisons, where some of the  most infamous convicts have been kept, such as Al Capone, Machine Gun Kelly and the Birdman. Bob When I got on the island,  they were a different kind of convict altogether. Nothing you've ever met before. Titles, names,  reputations, street wise stuff. Nothing meant nothing to them. On your -the ink on  your number had to be dry. In other words, had been there for a while before they would admit  that you're among them. You're nobody until you prove yourself you're okay. Katie (Voice Over) However, in Bob's case,  things were different for him when he arrived. Bob They  adopted me right away. “You know about scuba diving? Come on over here. I wanna talk to  ya. How do you make a regulator?” So I was, I was welcomed into the clan immediately. Katie (Voice Over) Scuba made Bob valuable  to the others, considering if you wanted to escape,  you better be more than comfortable in the water. From the first day, Bob got along fine. Bob It's a secret prison. No communication  to the outside world. Maximum security, minimum privilege. No-No privileges whatsoever. You had  to earn whatever you got. No newspapers, no news radios, no news magazines, no news at all. You  don't even get the letter you were sent. Somebody sends you a letter, you get a typed letter. Katie (On Location) Ohhhh…. Bob There's not that same wording.

Alejandro Vélez: 23:15

Right. Bob They changed the words,  there’s codes, and then when you're in your cell 23 hours a day, you don't get out of  your cell. Your cell is locked - if you're in it it’s locked and you come out three times a  day for meals - 20 minutes a meal - that’s it - it’s for eating, not for conversing. And you  don't get out of your cell to go wander down the block and talk to the Anglins or something  like that. I didn't even know what cell they lived in till I went back there to visit. Katie (Voice Over) Bob is referring to  John and Clarence Anglin, the two brothers who escaped along with another man, Frank Morris.  The three did make it off the island, but whether they made it to shore or not is another story.  If you ask an inmate, they'll tell you they made it all the way down to South America,  where they lived out the rest of their lives or where they could still be living today. If  you ask a guard, well, then that's a different story altogether. We'll come back to these guys,  as I need to tell you about Bob's contribution to their escape. Katie (On Location) Did you get visitors while you were there? Bob No, never. When I went in there,  I says, uh I refuse any visits whatsoever. I seen too many people go almost crazy after  doing a couple years then all of a sudden their wife comes in - pretty, perfumy, and froo-froo  stuff. And then after they leave, they go crazy for the next three or four months. You can't even  talk to them. They're all pissy and moany and- I will never have a visitor while I’m in prison. Katie (Voice Over) So with no visitors  and no contact to the outside world, Bob settled in on the bottom tier,  Block C. He didn't know it then, but he would be there for the next five years. Because Alejandro and I live in San Francisco. I've been to Alcatraz more times than I can count,  especially since when people come to visit, the island is always on the top things to do.  And no matter how many times they end up on that prison tour, it's the cold that really haunts me.  You see, every time I go, I'm chilled to the bone. And not just from the phantom whispers  that creep up behind me when walking the cavernous corridors. It's all of it. The damp cold seeps its  way through any crack or crevice it can find, in that unforgiving concrete fortress, slithering its  way under the iron bars of each cell, assaulting you with its icy, knotted, gnarled fingers. I've  never been there and not imagined what it must have been like to have that kind of cold wrapping  itself around you day in and day out. I'm from the Midwest, I know cold. Alcatraz - it’s a different  kind of cold altogether - so please forgive me as I recognize my next round of questions are  a bit strange to be asking a former bank robber, but I just couldn't help myself. Katie (On Location) Did they give you pajamas? Bob(laughs) No, no. Katie (On Location) What did you sleep in? Bob Shorts. Katie (On Location) Shorts. Could you have more than one blanket? Bob Yeah,  you could have as many blankets as you want cause it’s cold in there… Katie (On Location) I was gonna ask about that. Bob And it’s… The  bottom tier is the coldest, and I was a fifth-sixth cell in from the end Alejandro Vélez Right. Bob… on the first tier,  but the second tier is warmer and the third tier is warmer yet. And you can  request for a tier up there - a cell up there… and they’ll give it to ya.. But  you have to request for one and that means you have to kowtow to a guard… Katie (On Location) Hmmm… Bob… and say, “Please, sir, could I move to…” Oh. Bob I will not do  that. So for over five years, I was - had the same cell. I wouldn't move because you had to  ask permission to move and I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't ask a guard for anything. In fact,  I didn’t even learn their names. Everyone was “boss” to me. I just say, “Hey, boss.” Katie (On Location) All right, all right,  all right. Who cleaned your cells? You? Bob You. Katie (On Location) What did the prison  smell like? Have people asked you this yet? Bob No, I'm trying to  think of what it did smell like. Probably Lysol. My wife used to scrub the floors with Lysol soap.  And I complain to her, I said “don't use that shit. It smells like Alcatraz.” So apparently,  it smelled like… It - it was clean. That place was spotless. The main corridor was called Broadway. Katie (On Location) Yeah. Bob Okay. Broadway  you could eat off of. It was like a - like a dining room table. Oh! Alcatraz was super - Katie (Voice Over) Super Clean! Bob-that’s all you had  to do was clean and everybody wanted a job. So then you got out of your cell to go to work. Katie (Voice Over) You earned the privilege of  getting a job through good behavior. Bob's first job was in the tailor factory for $0.10 an hour,  until one day he accidentally cut off a chunk of his finger with the shears. Bob So you see the  scar? Where I cut it all the way around? I was pushing the cutter… Katie (Voice Over) Oh, yeah! Bob… and uh the  cutter ran into my finger. And they took me up to the hospital. And uh,  the surgeon up there put em all back together with stitches and he says,  “I matched up all the fingerprints so it should be a good job,” I said “well, thanks a lot.” Bob And I didn't like him for that.(Katie and Alejandro laugh) Katie (Voice Over) The shears incident  resulted in Bob being transferred from the tailor factory over to  what Bob called the labor gang, which was much more Bob's style. Bob And now I'm back home again with a 20 pound  sledge, and that's where Gino was, and doing games with him, about how long you could hold a 20 pound  sledge out at arm's length without it falling down? And we were knocking out walls and I was  getting toned up again. You know, I was gettin’ soft at - workin on the- in a clothing place. Katie (Voice Over) It was while on the  labor gang that Bob got injured again from a sledge hammer grazing his leg while working. Bob I couldn't walk,  so they put me in a hospital and that's where I met, uh, Birdman. Katie (Voice Over) The infamous Birdman,  Robert Stroud, originally convicted of murdering a barber after claiming  he didn't pay for a prostitute that Stroud, himself, was pimping out. Bob The only time  you could see him was if you spent the overnight in the hospital, cause that’s where his cell was. Katie (Voice Over) Stroud was also incarcerated  in Leavenworth, long before Bob was there. In 1916, he stabbed a guard to death in the  mess hall in front of 1100 men and was sentenced to death by hanging. However,  his mother pleaded to the courts for her son's life and his sentence was commuted to a life  sentence in solitary confinement. Stroud spent 30 years in Leavenworth and 17 in Alcatraz,  42 of them which were in isolation. So why was he called the Birdman? Well, while at Leavenworth, he found an injured canary in the recreational yard. After nursing  it back to health, he was permitted to breed birds and maintain a lab inside two adjoining  segregation cells, as the warden found this to be a productive use of Stroud's time. He ended  up raising nearly 300 birds in his cells and actually authored two books on canaries and  their diseases. Interestingly, when I Googled him, he comes up as an American author first,  before you read on that he's also a murderer. So this is why Robert Stroud is called - the Birdman. But back to Bob and his stay up in the hospital wing. To pass the time,  a lot of the convicts learned different languages,  and Spanish was a popular choice. So there was Bob, laid up in a hospital cell,  practicing his Spanish out loud, when he heard a voice correct him on his pronunciation.

Voice: 30:23

Aves… (whisper) Bob I- I was trying  to learn… and I says… talk these word… I hear a voice tell me the pronunciation was…  you know how to pronounce it right, and I says “Who are you?” And it was Birdman. Katie (Voice Over) Besides working in the clothing factory  and on the labor gang, Bob was also assigned to the docks, a natural fit due to his navy career.  It was this job that proved to be one of his most important. At least that's what his block mates,  Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers might say - the three men who were able to escape. I mentioned  them earlier. Clarence and John Anglin were farm boys and they were in Alcatraz, not because they  were so dangerous, but more because they wouldn't stop trying to escape from prison. The brothers  were known burglars and had even robbed a bank with a toy gun. Between a bank they robbed in  Alabama and the attempted escapes from the Atlanta State Penitentiary, they were finally sent over  to the Rock. That's where they met the other two men involved in the escape, Frank Morris and Allen  West. Bob's associate with them was by chance as they were all seated at the same mess hall  table. At this point in our conversation, Bob pulled out a picture of the cafeteria  from one of his Alcatraz books and began to walk Alejandro and I through the seating arrangements. Bob Here, ten man tables. Katie (Voice Over) Okay. Bob Here the ten man table,  and here's the seating arrangements of the ten man table. Mine was right here, the second one  from the end. Then here was Clarence Anglin, John Anglin, Allen -uh- West and Frank Morris. Katie (On Location) Frank Morris. So there's there's the connection. Bob Yeah. Katie (On Location) Boom, boom, boom. Bob At every meal where they’d  come up - and they would say, “we're having a problem with this” and ask everybody on  the table for help. And if we couldn’t- if we couldn't help them, we knew somebody who  could so we’d send them over to them people. There must've been 100 people involved in that escape. Katie (Voice Over) And Bob was one of  them. Because of his job, Bob had access to some valuable information. Bob I was down  on the docs working. And uh, this is this is the best job you can ever find in a prison. I mean,  there's no wall between me and uh freedom. There’s nothing but water,  and I can see the the cities around me. I seen the guard reading the paper that  he brought in, in his lunch box during his lunch break, and he - I thought, “Well, damn,  he’s got that San Francisco paper there. Every San Fransisco paper's got a tide table in them.” Katie (Voice Over) Tide tables show the daily predictions for the  time of low and high tides, as well as the height of those tides for a specific coastal region. Bob And all I  have to do is go into his lunch box when he's not there, take out the tide tables, write them down,  because I couldn't take the tables - he might miss it and then put the paper back in his lunch box. Katie (On Location) Ahhh… And I didn't give it to the Anglins at the dining  room table because I thought - didn’t want to get caught there. Katie (On Location) Uh huh… Bob I just carry it out  in the yard on weekends and give them the table that I picked up during the week. Katie (On Location) Did you want to go with them? Bob No, no. In fact,  they asked me and I said, “No, no way.” I didn't. I said, “You're not going to make it.” Katie (On Location) Do you think they made it? Bob No. Katie (On Location) Ahhh. Bob I know they didn't  make it. I gave them a tide table, which means they know when the tides are coming  in and when the tides are going out. It has to be timed perfectly. They have no watch.  They don't know what time it is… after they get out of that cell there is no way… uh uh … while  there in the cell nobody knows what time it is, except when they turn the lights out at 9:30 so  

we knew it was 9: 33:40

30. That weekend, they were out in the yard saying goodbye to everybody. Katie (On Location) Oh my god, that’s crazy! Bob All their friends.  It's unbelievable how many people knew about this escape.(Alejandro Vélez laughs.) Bob And it scared the hell out of  me. I - they used to tell me something about “when they would do this,” and I said “I don't want to  know that.” It it had nothing to do with my my end of this. I didn't want them to think I knew  so much that if they did, when they got caught, they would say, “Bob knew about this,” and I hate  to kill somebody in there. And uh, so I said, no - I - I’m not gonna involve myself with the escape. Katie (Voice Over) This was the plan. The brothers,  Morris and West dug up the concrete around a vent in the back of each of their cells. To do this,  some say they used spoons from the dining room, but Bob said they also had drill  bits and similar items given to them by other inmates from the prison workshops. All in all,  it took about six months to dig out their vents to be wide enough for them to slip  through. When the holes got too big to be hidden, they created fake vent frames with  painted cardboard that matched the original vents almost perfectly from a distance. Then,  through some scavenging and favors handed over by other inmates, the four men created  papier-mâché heads of themselves. They even cut some of their own hair to glue on top. Bob Morris’s  head looks just like Morris’s. I got a picture of both Morris’s face and his head. Katie (Voice Over) I looked at the two  pictures. I had to admit there was a resemblance which made Bob more than happy,  as I found out the two never really liked each other much. As Bob put it,  they were both extremely intelligent and both alphas. They just didn't mix. That night they  stuffed their beds with extra blankets and put the papier-mâché heads on their pillows making it look  as if they were fast asleep in their cells. The plan was to sneak out the widened vents as soon  as the lights went out. I know, it sounds like something out of a Scooby Doo getaway scene. Bob We knew they  

left at 9: 35:33

30 out of their cells, and we were all were staying awake to make noises that  would cover their noise. The whole cellblock that knew about it was involved with this Katie (Voice Over) Once each of the men were out of their cells,  they climbed up the pipes and scaffolding within the walls and met at another large vent that  led to the roof. West had discovered that vent while working a job in that area of the prison. Bob During  regular hours it’s quiet. You can hear a pin drop, but at night, after the lights go out,  it is like a… like a tomb. It's really, really quiet. So any little noise,  the scraping they were making climbing up that wall, hitting the pipes and everything… Katie (On Location) You heard all that. Bob Oh yes, because we were tuned  to it. And the guards were so brainwashed in the fact that once they’re locked up in their cell,  forget about it you're safe now. Now we got 8 hours of safety, contentment, relax,  because they're all the bad guys are locked up and nothing to worry about until morning. Katie (Voice Over) But such was not the case on that night,  June 11th, 1962. Once the Anglin brothers and Morris got to the vent that led to the roof,  one of them had to hoist themselves up, loosen the cover and lower it. The problem was only  one of them could fit into this tiny space they needed to access to get the cover off.  To complicate things further, the vent cover was heavy and whoever removed it, dropped it. Bob Well - well,  when they were lowering it and oh! When that uh… vent hit the roof with a loud clang - it was like  a tomb in there, it just - I almost jumped out of bed. That noise was so loud and I thought,  “Well, how do you cover some like - I said, there goes the ball  game - that they're caught. When they get out of the hole, I’ll give them some cigarettes.” Katie (Voice Over) But they didn't get  caught. Not Morris and the Anglin brothers anyway. Allen West, on the other hand,  he never made it out of his cell. He claimed he couldn't fit through the hole he dug. Others  say he got cold feet and never tried. Bob watched the whole thing unfold by  sticking his shaving mirror through his bars and tilting it down the corridor. Bob We were watching it with our mirror because  we knew there- they would be short for count, and I wanted to get a reaction when he got to  the cell and a dummy head didn’t get up and stand. You've got to stand up for count in the morning. Katie (On Location) Okay. Bob (cont.) There's so many counts… stand up  counts and… to make sure you're there. Otherwise you're just counting heads at - all night long. Katie (Voice Over) No pun intended. The  first cell the guard came to was Morris's. Bob When he got to him,  he says “Ok Morris, get up! Morris, get up!” And he wouldn't get up, of course. So he says,  “Lieutenant, we got a man here who won't get up.” And he says, “I'll take care of it.” And he went  right by my cell, stompin’ down there. He went down there and he says, “Uh… huh…” He put his arm  inside the bars and he slapped the pillow right next to the head and the pillow popped up in the  air, hit the deck. And his feet left the ground and jumped back four feet. I like, uh, went nuts. Katie (On Location)(Laughing) And he started blowing on his whistle, (imitates whistle) you know the one, and he says,  “Holy Christ!” And, and then next door was… any… anyway everybody started cheering when the whistle  went off, knew the escape happened and the count was short and uh everybody's cheering now and then  a couple hours later we started hearing explosions outside where they were throwing hand grenade in  uh - in all the caves around the island - so in case anyone was hiding in there… they’d be blown… Katie (On Location) They’d be killed. Bob Well, that’s what they  do. Anyway… that was the escape. Katie (Voice Over) The Anglin brothers and Frank Morris were never  seen again. Not by anyone who could prove they saw them anyway. Some, mostly inmates, say they made  it and ended up living in South America. Others, mostly guards, say they drowned in the bay. And  you already know Bob agrees with that theory. It's probably the only time in Bob's life he's ever  agreed with a guard. Either way, their bodies were never found, which keeps me wondering if they did,  in fact, live out the rest of their lives in freedom. And in the meantime, even though Allen  West stayed behind, he was never seen again by any of the inmates either, as he was hauled off  to the hole. Unfortunately, sometime later, so was Bob, but not for his role in the great escape.  During all this time we've covered, we've never talked about Bob's relationships or his wives,  which is a relevant bit of information that leads us into our next moment in Bob's story. Bob Karen,  I mean uh Betty, uh whatever… Shirley, I had so many women. (laughs) Katie and Alejandro Vélez (On Location)(Laughing) Katie (On Location) How many wives have you had? Bob Three. Shirley, the first one, she divorced me  when I went to Alcatraz. And when I got out, she won me back so I married her after I got out, too. Katie (Voice Over) It was during the  first divorce, Bob found himself in a dark hole. Bob I told Gino,  I said, “Well, my wife divorced me finally,” and he says, “Well, my wife in Chicago,  has got a girlfriend, redhead, you’d like her, big boobs.” And he gave me her picture. Now,  when we go to Alcatraz, everything you own - you bring in there, is put on a desk and he  stamped your number- 1355 on everything that you bring in there. And his number’s 1356. So  we had to smudge that six and I made it into a five. It wasn't perfect, but you  know, it was smudged enough that it looked a bit handled and it - it was not under investigation. Katie (Voice Over) At least it wasn't  under investigation until Bob found himself on the end of one of the guards random searches. Bob Well, they have uh  um shakedowns and they come in, tear everything up. The beds all tore up and they look under the  mattress, and they're very little places to hide anything in a cell that’s five foot by five, by  seven by nine foot long. And he- I seen the guard, he found this picture that the number on the back  of it is smeared and he couldn't make it out, what the number was for sure. And he checked my record  to see what the number was, and I didn't bring no pictures in. So he took me to court and wanted to  know who I got the picture from. Well, I wouldn't tell him. I'm not a snitch, I never been a snitch. Katie (Voice Over) Bob really did live by a  code of honor in regard to snitching. He believed in taking it to your grave, no matter the cost,  with one exception. We're going to take a quick flashback to a moment in Bob's childhood - all  the way back before his father died. Bob couldn't have been more than five years old. Bob My brother,  who was older than me, he went hunting one time and brought home some rabbits,  dead rabbits, and told me one of them was the Easter Bunny… Katie (On Location)(whispered) Oh my god. Bob (Cont)…and drove me  crazy. You know, I was only five years old and he killed my - he killed the Easter Bunny. Alejandro Vélez (laughing) Bob (Cont) So I told dad about it. I was snitch then. Katie (laughing) I told Dad (laughing) I couldn't forgive him for that. The Easter Bunny’s dead,  holy shit! Dad went crazy. (laughing) And he told Dean just… “don’t never do that shit to my kid!” Katie (Voice Over) So there you have  it. That's the one time Bob snitched in his entire life. In the case of  Gino and the girl in the photo, Bob stuck to his code of honor. Bob (Cont) So they, they  started asking me, they says uh… “You know, just tell us who it was.” And I said “No. My name is  Robert Schibline. 1355’s my number,” and that was all I would say. And they’d ask me any question  and I’d say its, “Robert Schibline, AZ 1355,” and they said “Take him away, put him in isolation.” I'm a rebel. So any joint I go into I- I’m introduced to their hole. I’d screw up all the  time. I spent seven days in a hole many times on issues that, a walk in the park- Here… seven days  is serious shit. It’s seven days, bread and water and blackout. You could put your hand in front of  your face and not see it. It is bl- you don't know the word- name of- understand the word black until  they put you in the hole there. And and it’s soundproof, almost. Then you got three days of  bread and water. Fourth day they have to feed you meal. So they bring in your boiled potato,  small one, a spoonful of peas, which contains about 12, and a raw onion. That's your meal. Then  you're back to bread and water again for the next three days. Now, they gave you two big hunks of  bread and the water, the bread you eat one piece, but the other piece you don't, you save that.  Because at night, that - the wharf rats… the water rats, huge animals - come out at night, you can't  hear it, I mean, you can't see them! But you can hear they're in the cell with ya. And, that’s why  you got that piece of bread. You save it for the rats. Otherwise they'll start eating you. They’re  nibbling on your feet and fingers and toes. You don't go to sleep when, when they’re around. Alejandro Vélez Ugh. Bob And you hear them slithering..sl…sl… noises…(Squeaking) Bob… and but  you can't never see the sons of bitches. And after about the fifth day, I was looking at  the second piece of bread and I thought, well, you know, it’s starting to taste like cake now,  I thought, well, I'm not sure I want to share this with a rat (laughing).(Everyone chuckling) Katie (On Location) Oh my god. Bob Well, I - I ended up  letting him have his fair share. And after seven days I got out and I never screwed up again. That  was the reason I was in the hole, because I had a stupid picture of a woman. A little four by six,  not obscene picture, just a - but she was enhanced, but she was fully dressed. I told  Gino when I got out, I said, “I don’t even want to know that woman anymore.” Katie (Voice Over) Long after this conversation with Bob,  I found myself wondering how he even knew to save that piece of bread for the rats. And so,  once again, I found myself on the phone with Bob, and I was glad I asked. Katie (Over the Phone) I want to know, how you knew, and  how everyone knew, to make sure you saved a little bread for those rats. Like do they- do peop-, do  do people tell each other that, do the guys inside say, “make sure you save some bread?” Bob (Over the Phone) I don't know anything  about how other people di-did, just myself, but when they open the door of the cell in front,  and just before they slammed it shut, somebody in the tier above me hollered,  “Save some bread for your friends,” or your “visitors,” or something like that. Katie (Over the Phone) Oh… you’re kidding me. Bob (Over the Phone) And I don't know to  this day, who that was, but I'm grateful for the rest of my life. Katie (Voice Over) Bob did a total of five years in Alcatraz. He did  his time without seeing one visitor, his choice. I imagined not seen anyone from the outside for five  whole years. No one from your past. Everyone, except those inside with you, completely  erased from your present. It was a daunting thought. During one of my visits to Alcatraz,  there was something else that I learned that really got to me. When you go through the tour,  there's a point when the audio guide places you in front of a tiny window - kind of the length of a  shoebox, but only about three inches wide. When you look through it, you can see San Francisco  far across the bay. The guide mentions that on an active night, such as New Year's Eve, you  could actually hear the festivities like music and even soft laughter. I asked Bob if this was true. Bob Oh yes. When the wind  was just right and the windows were open. And when the windows were open and the wind was just right,  thank God it wasn't that way often, we could hear the sounds of people… laughing up at  the yacht club or where ever it was, giggling, or laughing, or hollering, beeping and horns.  Sometimes music, um whisp of it, yeah but it’s a mile and a quarter away from there, and if  the wind was right it would whisk that sound to us, and it had to be a combination of all. Katie (Voice Over) Bob was released  from Alcatraz in 1964, and it did change him. Bob After I got outta Alcatraz  I got shipped back to Leavenworth, I straightened  out a little bit and I - I stopped saying black when they hollered white. And uh,  I stopped arguing with the guards and I just done my own time. I said stop being an asshole. Katie (On Location) What's interesting  is you said your moment was a five year moment. Bob I don't… I- yeah,  I don't think there was any one moment of that five years I was in there that I finally realized,  who I’m screwing by being such a rebel. But I think it was overriding five years  of living there that I finally realized, I just agree with them and I get out earlier! Katie (Voice Over) Bob got out early for good behavior,  serving just a little over nine years of the 15, for the one bank robbery he was convicted for. Bob I've never,  ever robbed a bank again. I haven’t never killed anybody. I was clean. I had to do  something to work. And the only thing I knew how to do, other than rob banks, is is scuba diving. Katie (On Location) Uh huh Bob So I open a dive shop up. And uh, so the dive  shop was makin’ more money than robbin banks was, without the danger of getting caught when I didn't  shoot nobody. So I thought, “Well, hell I'll just play it straight.” So… but not squeaky clean! Katie (Voice Over) Squeaky clean or  not. Bob stayed out of trouble enough to meet his third wife,  Karen. It was on their third date that he came clean about his past. Bob I told her the whole story.  And we sat down and we just talked all night long. We had no sex or nothing; we just talked. And uh,  she said she was so relieved I wasn't a rapist or dope smuggler (laughing.) And she was religious,  I’m atheist, so we didn't argue about religion. Everything was fine with that. We had no fights,  no arguments. For 30 years we were married, and we just got along, real,  real good. Everything was perfect. The only trouble, I started teaching her martial arts…(Everyone chuckles) Bob (Cont) She flipped me and I hit the deck - hard.  My back still hurts. I was trying to show her how to self-protect. I didn't think she would hurt me.(Everyone laughs) Bob (Cont) Oh, she was my protector, uh, my little bulldog. Katie (Voice Over) Karen died in 2017,  and Bob's been living on his own since. I wondered what she would have added to the  story if she'd been sitting there with us while Bob showed off his Alcatraz mugshot.  The black and white photo shows a very handsome twenty-something Bob staring into the camera.  He's got a little gleam in his eye that matches the half smile he's wearing. It's  not a smirk. It's a smile, almost as if he's laughing at the officer taking the picture. Katie (On Location) I feel like when I see  this mug shot, I feel like…he -you, I'm like, he thinks somethings very funny.  What were… Do you remember what you were thinking in that moment? Bob(chuckles) No. Katie (On Location) I mean, look at - you do not  look scared. You do not look upset. You look like, “Yeah, I'm awesome.” Bob Yeah…(Alejandro laughing) Katie (On Location) Like you look like you do not care! Bob No,  I’m in Alcatraz, what else can they gonna do to me? I'm at the bottom of  the trash heap. There's nothing they can do to me that’s worse than.... Katie (On Location) It’s the nicest picture. Bob Oh well, I'm a nice guy.(Katie and Alejandro laugh) Bob (Cont) And here's my story. Katie (Voice Over) I guess sometimes our life changing  moments don't boil down to specifically one big altering moment. That instead,  the things that change us often are thousands of moments compressed into one gigantic moment  of time. And it's these moments combined that define us and make us who we are as  we live out our own individual stories. But you know me, I still had one last question for Bob. Katie (On Location) Why? Why? Like - do you get a high of it…? Bob What? Katie (On Location, cont.) Or do you? Okay, here, so we  all like have these fantasies, but you actually went out and did it, right? So, I mean, maybe  we don't all, but many of us might have these crazy fantasies of living this other bad life… Bob Yeah. Katie (On Location, cont.)…but you did it. So my  question is like, why - just for the money or is there a rush…? Bob Oh, the money! The money.  I really like the money and um I didn't like the - the rules. Katie (On Location) Yeah. Bob Yeah. But I'm  not going back - to the joint. That's definite. Katie (Voice Over) This episode of Shadow  Clock was created by me. Story editing is by Adam Gould and me. Location sound is by  Alejandro Vélez. Our post audio editor is Josh Kobak. Additional post-production audio is by  Matt Sauro. Social media is managed by Alec Jansen and Kelsey Hayes. Music is credited to Pond5 and  Premium Beat. Content contributors, composers and individual song titles for each episode  can be found on our Website at shadow-clock.com. Kate Cosgrove creates original illustrations for  each episode of Shadow Clock, which you can also see at shadow-clock.com. If you like the show,  you can spread the word by telling someone else about Shadow Clock and of course by following us  on social media. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook @ShadowClockPodcast on X,  formerly known as Twitter, @ShadowClockPod and on YouTube @Shadow Clock. I personally want to  express just how much it means every time you give us a click, a like, a subscribe, or follow,  and we love word of mouth endorsements. Your support means the world, and I can't thank each  and every one of you enough. Speaking of thanks, a special thanks goes out to Alejandro Vélez,  Adam Gould, Alec Jansen, Kate Cosgrove, Josh Kobak, Matt Sauro, Jonny Massena, Bruce Scivally,  Adam Zavaslak, Austin Krieg, Forest Hills Northern High School in Michigan, Duro Howard,  and Kelsey Hayes. Lastly, I want to thank our guest, Bob Schibline, for sharing his story with  us. He kept me on my toes the entire time. And with that, I'm Katie and this is Shadow Clock.